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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 21 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1544<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re: Far Future Terra (was: Vanishing Wetlands...)<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
Re: CT to T4 power conversion (Was: Re: Asteroid Mining)<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
RE: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
The Once and Future Terra<BR>
Re: Far Future Terra (was: Vanishing Wetlands...)<BR>
RE: technology advances<BR>
The Death of Q<BR>
Canada<BR>
How much should a starship cost<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
Re: Canada<BR>
CT-(Other Travs)<BR>
Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:42:55 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> They seem to have saved the rain-forest and reversed the desertification<BR>
> of Africa as well.<BR>
> <BR>
> Regarding what the US looks like at this time, there appear to be massive<BR>
> population concentrations around Detroit and the East Coast.  The<BR>
> Northwest is still heavily forested and there is a major starport in the<BR>
> rockies called Paulo.<BR>
<BR>
Could it be the rainforest (tropical and PNW temperate) are actually<BR>
recreations, too?<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, I only skimmed the thread on Zhodani and Vilani races, but it occurs<BR>
> to me that just about every pic I've seen of either of these groups<BR>
> portrays a white person.  Did they have suns with lower UV or something?<BR>
> Or do we just have to accept that it's a marketing/artist's bias kinda<BR>
> thing?  Actually, the latter seems like the necessary explanation, as<BR>
> most Solomani are portrayed as white also...<BR>
<BR>
Well, this is *Traveller*, and you're on the TML, so there's only one real<BR>
answer: white people have an evolutionary advantage, and other races just<BR>
*naturally* became extinct.  What else explains it?<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Wondering if a race war on the TML would be more interesting than a guns &<BR>
Yanks flamewar.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:40:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Not only that, but we've also taken over your entertainment industry.<BR>
>Some of our agents in the field: Celine Dion. Dan Aykroyd. William<BR>
>Shatner. Alex Trebek. David James Elliot. Jim Carrey. Tommy<BR>
>Chong. Pamela Anderson. Michael  J. Fox. Peter Jennings. Howie<BR>
>Mandel. Alanis Morissette. Donald Sutherland. Shania Twain. Leslie<BR>
>Nielsen. And the recently-late Hank Snow.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but doesn't it say something that they have to flee their homeland en<BR>
masse in order to be in the entertainment industry?!?<BR>
<BR>
<jingoistic mode><BR>
That's right, baby, bow before the American entertainment industry! We might<BR>
not have "won" the War of 1812, but we put out a movie in which a French<BR>
pirate, played by a guy from Vladivostok, came along with his motley crew of<BR>
buccaneers saved Charlton Heston from certain doom at the Battle of New<BR>
Orleans!<BR>
<BR>
So you can *keep* your Ray Bradbury Theater... and your half of the that<BR>
other show with the Canadian mountie, his dog, and the American detective!<BR>
<jingoistic mode off><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:44:20 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Future Terra (was: Vanishing Wetlands...)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Earth while the rise was at it's worst. Almost everywhere else<BR>
> built dikes, Egypt and Siberia couldn't afford to and got wet instead.<BR>
<BR>
I am silent.  Silent as a mouse.  My lips are sealed.  I will say nothing<BR>
lewd.  I think nothing lewd.  My mind is a pure crystal of cleanliness and<BR>
rectitude.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:42:15 -0800<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
>Nope.  I don't think you can equate the Harappan culture with modern<BR>
>India or any other nation-state of today.  Of course, the continuity between<BR>
>Middle Kingdom Egypt and present-day Egypt, or between Shang Dynasty<BR>
>China and present-day China, is pretty tenuous too.  Which is my point<BR>
>anyway :-).<BR>
<BR>
I don't think China has changed that much, actually.  Instead of Shang, we<BR>
now have the Mao Dynasty.  And recent events with the Falun Gong suggest<BR>
that this dynasty may have lost the Mandate of Heaven, meaning another<BR>
Warring States period could be on the horizon...<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes I wonder if all of "Western" civilization will be only a blip in<BR>
the thousands of years of history of the Middle Kingdom.  (Of course, such<BR>
continuity is only maintained through often heavy-handed stifling of<BR>
innovation which might upset the balance of society... suddenly the<BR>
longevity of the Ziru Siirka begins to look more plausible.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair   "The Jigglypuff's trilling seems to have a <BR>
kellys@efn.org    tranquilizing effect on the human nervous system.<BR>
                  Fortunately, I am... immune..."<BR>
                            -- Mr. Spock, THE TROUBLE WITH POKEMON<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:52:45 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Kenji Schwarz wrote:<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> I beg yer *pardon*!  Even under the new, improved DSM-IV, I'm not<BR>
> >> technically nuts.<BR>
> <BR>
> DSM-IV is a *lot* "looser" than DSM-III with regards to being "kinky". <BR>
<BR>
Who says I'm kinky?  Sheesh!  The conclusions you people jump to!  Get<BR>
your minds out of the gutters, puh-leeeze!<BR>
<BR>
> Basicly, If it doesn't bother *you* and doesn't interfere with your<BR>
> being able to function in society, you don't need treatment.<BR>
<BR>
Oh.  Well.  Function?  Okay...<BR>
<BR>
> So sorry folks, but while Kenji may be *weird*, he ain't *crazy*. <BR>
<BR>
Which means the lawyers will -- purely hypothetically -- need to think of<BR>
something else.<BR>
<BR>
> Being that this list isn't XXX rated, and most of you *really* don't<BR>
> want to know, I'll refrain from listing any possiblitities.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, come on, Leonard -- this isn't an *entertainment* list, either; it's<BR>
*science*.  Inquiring minds and stuff like that.  It's all about the<BR>
search for truth and technical advantage.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:03:49 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
> Ok then a quick nose count then...<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. How many of us are there now in the Bay Area?<BR>
<BR>
Russell B lives in the sunny Mission district of SF.<BR>
 <BR>
> 2. Who's looking for a game?<BR>
<BR>
Yup.<BR>
 <BR>
> 3. Availability<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Work is evil.<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:16:58 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT to T4 power conversion (Was: Re: Asteroid Mining)<BR>
<BR>
Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
> Can someone conferm or correct the following:<BR>
> 1 EP = 1 Mw<BR>
> - --<BR>
> Jason<BR>
<BR>
I thought it was 1 EP = 250 MW, but I have no citation.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:27:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
> > Ok then a quick nose count then...<BR>
> > <BR>
> > 1. How many of us are there now in the Bay Area?<BR>
> <BR>
> Russell B lives in the sunny Mission district of SF.<BR>
>  <BR>
Really?  Me too!  Where?  I live across from the Women's Building, you can<BR>
see all the murals from my living room window.<BR>
<BR>
> > 3. Availability<BR>
> <BR>
> Nope. Work is evil.<BR>
> <BR>
Yes, but if you are looking for a game one presumes you might be able to<BR>
show up once in a while...?  Maybe after the holiday craze has subsided?<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:31:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
Hm...mostly been ignoring this thread (not really looking for games at the moment) but I live in Berkeley.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:33:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Kenji Schwarz wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Basicly, If it doesn't bother *you* and doesn't interfere with your<BR>
> > being able to function in society, you don't need treatment.<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh.  Well.  Function?  Okay...<BR>
> <BR>
Maybe not *those* functions, Kenji.<BR>
<BR>
> > So sorry folks, but while Kenji may be *weird*, he ain't *crazy*. <BR>
> <BR>
> Which means the lawyers will -- purely hypothetically -- need to think of<BR>
> something else.<BR>
> <BR>
That's what we pay them for.<BR>
<BR>
> > Being that this list isn't XXX rated, and most of you *really* don't<BR>
> > want to know, I'll refrain from listing any possiblitities.<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh, come on, Leonard -- this isn't an *entertainment* list, either; it's<BR>
> *science*.  Inquiring minds and stuff like that.  It's all about the<BR>
> search for truth and technical advantage.<BR>
> <BR>
And big bucks.  I really do want to know the technical uses of this and<BR>
that in the Far Future... I've had a few PC's that would have taken this<BR>
information and run with it.<BR>
<BR>
Julissa, for one.  She was every Bad Noblewoman on the Side of the Good<BR>
Guys in space opera, rolled into one curvaceous package.<BR>
<BR>
(I really want to recreate her!  I think the thing I like about the idea<BR>
of GURPS Traveller is that characters like Jiss, who were born of lucky<BR>
die rolls, can actually be *planned*.  I REALLY, REALLY want to play<BR>
Julissa haut-D'Bari again, but I don't know if I even have a character<BR>
sheet any more... sheesh, I created her when I was 16!  Which is longer<BR>
ago than I care to admit.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:25:46 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> <jingoistic mode><BR>
<BR>
Ooh, flamebait!<BR>
<BR>
<flamebait auto-response mode><BR>
<BR>
Question: how much  of  the  American  entertainment  industry  is<BR>
American?<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm ... we've already had a list of non-American actors posing as<BR>
Americans (could probably add others).<BR>
<BR>
Location shots when not by that rock  in  California:  X-Files  is<BR>
shot mainly in Canada, Earth 2 (well  I  liked  it)  was  shot  in<BR>
Mexico I think, Matrix shot in Australia.<BR>
<BR>
Studios: Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Aliens, ... shot in UK.<BR>
<BR>
Seems like the  "American"  entertainment  industry  is  really  a<BR>
global entertainment industry that packages itself as American  to<BR>
get around the average American's stunted  education.  See  recent<BR>
TML thread about people  thinking  "Saving  Private  Ryan"  was  a<BR>
Vietnam War film and the bad  guys  were  Japs,  James  Bond  film<BR>
"Licence Revoked" was renamed "Licence To Kill" cos most Americans<BR>
asked don't know what 'revoked' means, "The Madness Of King George<BR>
III" was renamed "The Madness Of King George" cos  most  Americans<BR>
asked said they wouldn't see it before seeing the first two  films<BR>
... I could go on.<BR>
<BR>
</flamebait auto-response mode><BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
(Appologies if anyone offended, was ment in jest.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:51:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: The Once and Future Terra<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >> Just consider that given the faults all thru California, and the 3000+<BR>
> >> year timescale, expect that anything west of the main fault lines could<BR>
> >> be as much as a few *miles* north of where it is now.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Interesting point, and I suppose the same holds true along other fault lines<BR>
> > (at least the sideways sliding types), and other geological activity would<BR>
> > have changed the terrain as well.<BR>
> <BR>
> It depends on the fault lines. California is one of the more prominent<BR>
> cases of a crustal plate sliding along the edge of another. <BR>
<BR>
Consider the picture of a *faaaaar* future earth painted in Vernor<BR>
Vinge's "Marooned in Real Time."  The Juan de Fuca Plate dissappears<BR>
in the Pacific Northwest subduction zone, the Cocos Plate continues<BR>
to pull away from the Nazca Plate and move north, which continues to<BR>
push the tiny San Andreas Plate in a northwesterly direction, over the<BR>
top of the Pacific Plate.  By some time around MegaYear 50, all of what<BR>
is now coastal California, from San Francisco to the tip of Baja, is<BR>
a long, skinny island off the coast of what used to be Oregon and<BR>
Washington.<BR>
<BR>
> Most others are either seperating (Africa's Great Rift valley will be<BR>
> an arm of the sea eventually, much like the Red sea). Or they are<BR>
> impacting (such as the Indian plate slamminmg into the Eurasian plate<BR>
> and raising the Himalayas). <BR>
> <BR>
> > Like the chain Hawaii.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hawaii is a geological oddity. There's a hot spot *deep* in the mantle<BR>
> there, which causes a rising plume of hot rock. This melts thru the<BR>
> thin oceanic crust, and the Hawaii Islands are the result. The plume<BR>
> hasn't moved in millions of years, but the crust the island sit on<BR>
> *has*. Thus the chain of islands.<BR>
<BR>
Right, because the Pacific Plate is moving slowly north and west.  In<BR>
the western Pacific, It is pushing under the Eurasian Plate (in the<BR>
north) and the Philippines Plate and Caroline Plate (in the south.)<BR>
This is why the islands of Japan and the Philippines are so tectonically<BR>
and volcanically active.<BR>
<BR>
> > Aren't the Himmalayas still rising?<BR>
> <BR>
> Possibly. After all, India is still trying to ram Asia.<BR>
<BR>
Right again.  As the Indian Plate moves northeast, it piles up on top<BR>
of the much larger Eurasia Plate and the Himalayas are the result.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone is interested, there's a *seriously* cool Java animation<BR>
called "Deconstructing Pangaea..." at the URL:<BR>
<BR>
  http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Geology/webdogs/plates/pangaea-1.html<BR>
<BR>
Check it out!<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything<BR>
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."<BR>
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature<BR>
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives<BR>
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:20:49 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Future Terra (was: Vanishing Wetlands...)<BR>
<BR>
Kenji wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
I am silent.  Silent as a mouse.  My lips are sealed.  I will say nothing<BR>
lewd.  I think nothing lewd.  My mind is a pure crystal of cleanliness and<BR>
rectitude.<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
Owch. Don't strain yourself Kenji, that kind of self control sounds painful.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:24:14 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
> From: Kenji Schwarz [mailto:schwarz@fas.harvard.edu]<BR>
<BR>
> Who says I'm kinky?  Sheesh!  The conclusions you people jump to!  Get<BR>
> your minds out of the gutters, puh-leeeze!<BR>
<BR>
Bet we like it in the gutter!  It's all warm and squishy...<BR>
<BR>
> > Basicly, If it doesn't bother *you* and doesn't interfere with your<BR>
> > being able to function in society, you don't need treatment.<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh.  Well.  Function?  Okay...<BR>
<BR>
Pretending to be a mature, responsible adult in public sure does cramp my<BR>
style.<BR>
<BR>
> > Being that this list isn't XXX rated, and most of you *really* don't<BR>
> > want to know, I'll refrain from listing any possiblitities.<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh, come on, Leonard -- this isn't an *entertainment* list, <BR>
> either; it's<BR>
> *science*.  Inquiring minds and stuff like that.  It's all about the<BR>
> search for truth and technical advantage.<BR>
<BR>
<CaptKirk><BR>
We must seekout...and meet...new alien babes...<BR>
To...get to...know them...<BR>
</CaptKirk><BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:37:41 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: The Death of Q<BR>
<BR>
>Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>     Tonight, I have learned that Q aka Desmond Llewelyn, has died in a car<BR>
>> crash outside of London, England.  Let us all take a moment out, to<BR>
>>mourn this<BR>
>> great actor.<BR>
><BR>
>A toast:  To the greatest gadgeteer this side of Famille Spofulam - Q.<BR>
>\~/<BR>
<BR>
Until the last line I was thinking "Who is this person, and why are they<BR>
saying he had John Delancy's role?" Now I realize it's the Bond Q, not the<BR>
star trek Q.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, he will be missed. Makes me want to sit down with 3G3 or FF&S and<BR>
design a cpaws attache case.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:47:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Canada<BR>
<BR>
I heard recently that Canada was named by Spanish<BR>
explorers who were looking for ancient civilizations,<BR>
cities of gold, and mujeres con tres tetas (as one of<BR>
Cabeza de Vaca's companions is said to have testified<BR>
after their return to Spanish possessions).  <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, the Spaniards ended up north of their<BR>
destination, and were rather disappointed with what<BR>
they saw.  Asked later to describe the new territory,<BR>
they said, "que nada", which eventually became<BR>
pronounced Canada.<BR>
<BR>
Do the Canadians on the list know whether this story<BR>
is correct?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:46:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: How much should a starship cost<BR>
<BR>
I was quite interested in the thread about the relative cost of starships<BR>
and was taken with the arguments for reducing their price tags.  I mentioned<BR>
this to Rob Eaglestone, my favorite Traveller economist, and asked if he<BR>
would do an editorial on the subject.  Well! did he ever.  Now I'm<BR>
soliciting opposing view points to his, now published at<BR>
http://www.downport.com/point/  As you'll see, I've learned another lesson<BR>
in economics today ;-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:53:49 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Kelly St.Clair wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I don't think China has changed that much, actually.  Instead of Shang, we<BR>
> now have the Mao Dynasty.  And recent events with the Falun Gong suggest<BR>
> that this dynasty may have lost the Mandate of Heaven, meaning another<BR>
> Warring States period could be on the horizon...<BR>
<BR>
Hm, what's changed, say, just between Shang and Qing... mode of<BR>
government, political philosophy, governmental structure and operations,<BR>
population structure, ecological setting, diet, agricultural and<BR>
industrial technology, language, literature, arts, kinship system, dress,<BR>
settlement patterns, religion, ethical philosophy, Pokemon, and RPGs.<BR>
You're right! The Orient *is* changeless and ancient!<BR>
<BR>
No offense meant.<BR>
<BR>
> Sometimes I wonder if all of "Western" civilization will be only a blip in<BR>
> the thousands of years of history of the Middle Kingdom.  (Of course, such<BR>
> continuity is only maintained through often heavy-handed stifling of<BR>
> innovation which might upset the balance of society... suddenly the<BR>
> longevity of the Ziru Siirka begins to look more plausible.)<BR>
<BR>
"Often heavy-handed stifling of innovation????"  I'll give you my spot in<BR>
the department if you can name, say, three imperially-stifled innovations<BR>
in Chinese history (caveat being that I don't regard armed insurrections<BR>
as innovations per se.)  That's around one per millenium.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:04:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
<BR>
Swordy (Colin Michael) writes:<BR>
> I was quite interested in the thread about the relative cost of starships<BR>
> and was taken with the arguments for reducing their price tags.  I<BR>
> mentioned this to Rob Eaglestone, my favorite Traveller economist, and<BR>
> asked if he would do an editorial on the subject.  Well! did he ever.  Now<BR>
> I'm soliciting opposing view points to his, now published at<BR>
> http://www.downport.com/point/  As you'll see, I've learned another lesson<BR>
> in economics today ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Basically, my response is as follows:<BR>
<BR>
The canonical assumption about a free (or 'tramp') trader is that you're talking about something equivalent to a small business.  The assumption is that a typical free trader is sort of the 'han solo' type, poor and on the edge.<BR>
<BR>
Now, a free trader, depending on your ruleset, represents a capital investment of between 25 and 50 MCr.  Assuming a 20% down and that the captain has a 10% share, that means his investment is 500-1000 kCr.<BR>
<BR>
This means that your average free trader is, by standards of most worlds (and most other traveller characters), extremely wealthy.  This is _not_ the image of the classic trader.  <BR>
<BR>
Assuming you don't want every free trader to be quite wealthy, an order of magnitude reduction in the cost of a basic trade ship is in order...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:00:56 -0500<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Canada<BR>
<BR>
At 12:47 PM 12/21/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>I heard recently that Canada was named by Spanish<BR>
>explorers who were looking for ancient civilizations,<BR>
>cities of gold, and mujeres con tres tetas (as one of<BR>
>Cabeza de Vaca's companions is said to have testified<BR>
>after their return to Spanish possessions).<BR>
><BR>
>Anyway, the Spaniards ended up north of their<BR>
>destination, and were rather disappointed with what<BR>
>they saw.  Asked later to describe the new territory,<BR>
>they said, "que nada", which eventually became<BR>
>pronounced Canada.<BR>
><BR>
>Do the Canadians on the list know whether this story<BR>
>is correct?<BR>
<BR>
Not a Canadian, but IIRC it was a Native American word/phrase 'Kanata' or <BR>
some similar spelling that referred to a local landmark.<BR>
<BR>
I might be right, I might be wrong, wouldn't be the first time for either. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:10:40 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: CT-(Other Travs)<BR>
<BR>
>Can someone conferm or correct the following:<BR>
>1 EP = 1 Mw<BR>
>- --<BR>
no. 1 EP = 250 MW<BR>
from Striker:<BR>
A HG laser, 1 EP, is a 250 MW input<BR>
So is a HG plasma gun.<BR>
HG Fusion guns (2EP) are 500 MW.<BR>
<BR>
going the other direction, taking TL15 PP's, 1m^3 of a 14+m^3 plan produces<BR>
18MW:1m^3 ; 14x18=72+180=252MW at the low end of fusion, you get 14x3MW per<BR>
Td, or 52MW.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:22:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Assuming you don't want every free trader to be quite wealthy, an order of<BR>
> magnitude reduction in the cost of a basic trade ship is in order... <BR>
<BR>
Note that the easiest way to do that is to have an 'entry-level' trader which is just very small.  It will not be particularly competitive on rates with larger ships, however.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:36:12 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
> Assuming you don't want every free trader to be quite wealthy, an order of<BR>
> magnitude reduction in the cost of a basic trade ship is in order... <BR>
<BR>
Note that the easiest way to do that is to have an 'entry-level' trader which is just very small.  It will not be particularly competitive on rates with larger ships, however.<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
You'll need to do some tweaking of the design and/or economics rules<BR>
for this to work. Certain items hit minimum price and displacement limits<BR>
where you just can't make them smaller or cheaper, no matter how<BR>
small a ship you are making. A type-A Free Trader from CT had the<BR>
cheapest, smallest drives and computers available, for example - making<BR>
the ship smaller won't save on the really expensive stuff, it'll just<BR>
reduce the size of your cargo bay.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:53:55 -0800<BR>
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "cos 90" <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 6:34 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >OK OK, I have to finnally admit it.  The American invasion of Britain's<BR>
> >Canadian territories was an evil plot.  America wanted to grab Canada<BR>
before<BR>
> >it bacame an independent nation in order to prevent Hockey from being<BR>
> >invented!!  The plot failed completely, and now the sport has infested<BR>
even<BR>
> >the climates of Florida and Los Angles.  OOOOHHHHH history!!!<BR>
><BR>
> Not only that, but we've also taken over your entertainment industry. Some<BR>
> of our agents in the field: Celine Dion. Dan Aykroyd. William Shatner.<BR>
Alex<BR>
> Trebek. David James Elliot. Jim Carrey. Tommy Chong. Pamela Anderson.<BR>
Michael<BR>
> J. Fox. Peter Jennings. Howie Mandel. Alanis Morissette. Donald<BR>
Sutherland.<BR>
> Shania Twain. Leslie Nielsen. And the recently-late Hank Snow.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Don't forget we gave you football and basketball<BR>
<BR>
Wayne<BR>
wewart@home.com<BR>
icq22113294<BR>
http://www.members.home.net/wewart/wewart/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.<BR>
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.<BR>
- - Terry Pratchett<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1544<BR>
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